As usual Dinesh D'Souza is wrong. He sees the examples of the ancient Greeks and Romans practicing bisexuality as definitive proof that homosexuality is not innate. His theory is that since current Greeks and Romans don't practice rampant bisexuality (let's assume that's true for the moment being) and the ancient Greeks and Romans did, it must be a cultural thing. Not a genetic one.
What's funny about the Christian right argument is that they admit that they are powerless to stop feelings of homosexuality taking over if society opens up to it. What's going through their minds? Perhaps they're not so different from the ancient Greeks after all.
Of course, as Kinsey showed, the difference between homosexuality and heterosexuality is not a sharp divide (I used to take credit for this idea until I realized Professor Kinsey had written about this before I was even born). It's not a black or white, gay or straight issue. Everyone is somewhere along the gay-straight spectrum.
And the further society opens up to homosexuality as permissible, the more people feel comfortable coming out as bisexual, homosexual, omnisexual or whateversexual.
Let me give a quick and absurdly simplistic example. Let's assume 100 is completely gay and 0 is completely straight on our gay-straight continuum. A person who ranks a 95 on the gay scale is probably going to act out on those innate desires no matter what societal rules there are, even at the risk of being put to death in closed societies.
A person who is a 5 on that scale might never act on any trace bisexual desires he or she might have no matter what the societal norms are. But the more open a society is, the more you will start to draw in people who score an 85, 75, 65, 55, 45, 35, etc. on our fun little gay-straight line.
In a very closed society some one who is "80% gay" might never come out and in a very open society someone who is even "20% gay" might try it. These are gross simplifications, but you get the point. In fact, this is in some ways exactly what the culture warriors on the right have been warning about.
The Christian right (and the religious and cultural conservatives of a great many societies) have been worried about this for a long time. They are right. As society opens up, we will likely be more "gay." Or in reality, be closer to our true nature, wherever that might lie on the bisexuality continuum.
Where the cultural right is wrong is when they make a value judgment on that. Of course, there isn't anything wrong with that all. In fact, since it allows us to be closer to our "real" nature without societal judgments on our natural sexual preferences, there is something very right about it.
As it stands, our current culture doesn't yet appear to be fully comfortable with a truly and widely bisexual society. So, we inch toward progress or slouch toward
Though it must be noted that we have already achieved a great deal of openness on the female side of the equation. Ask around and see if you can find a woman under 25 who hasn't made out with one of their girlfriends.
My informal study on our show indicates about 80% of girls under 25 have at least tried a sexual experience with another woman (I concede that I am no Alfred Kinsey and my so-called evidence is wildly anecdotal, but ask for yourself and you'll see my numbers are shockingly accurate).
D'Souza uses history as his guide. It's ironic because his argument is ultimately against the tide of history and the inevitability of our genes. We know what the future holds, it is our past. The American people are right, our sexuality is innate. We just have to have the courage to own up to it.
Watch The Young Turks
Reader Comments ( Page 36 of 37)
526. As usual science doesn't ever seem to enter into these culture war cronicles. For those educated in science, not biblocal belief, in statistics there is a thing called a normative distribution or "bell curve". All nuturally occuring things can be plotted against it. For instance for males that could be penis length, for females that could be bust size. 68% of all samples will fall just a little right or left of the middle, all the rest will fall in increasingly smaller numbers farther out until only a very few are at the far far edges. Particularly in light of recent supportive research, so can sexual proclivity. End of story, nothing more needs to be observed! Fact is fact ... not belief!
Johnny at 2:57AM on Jul 5th 2007
527. i'm so pleased to read Cenk's lucid thoughts. As a young, hetro child in the South, I wondered why so many otherwise normal acting people vowed all the 'queers were going to hell!!' and so often seemed to want to hasten the journey. That was a long time ago, yet now as "we inch toward progress or slouch toward Bethlehem," there is still a mob brandishing swords ready to smite the sinners down. And yes, as usual, D'Souza's got it all wrong.
ruth at 10:04AM on Jul 5th 2007
528. ON WOMEN TURNING TO GAY/BI LIFE STYLE,IN THE END TIMES YOUR WOMEN AND YOUR MEN WILL DEPART FROM THE NATURAL FOR THE UNNATURAL,EVEN THOU THIS HAS BEEN THUR OUT HISTORY,IT APPEAR'S THAT GOD HAS A CUTTING POINT,SINCE NO CIVILIZATION HAS SURVIVED OR ADVANCED,WERE ARE THEY NOW!ALSO IF IT'S SO RIGHT ,WHY CAN'T A MAN LAY WITH ANOTHER MAN AND MAKE A BABY OR A WOMAN AND A WOMAN FOR THAT MATTER' that's because it's outside of the plan' GOD OR NATURE IT DOES NOT ADD UP 1+1=2 NOT 3!
r.lucas at 10:50AM on Jul 5th 2007
529. ALSO FORGOT TO MENTION IF ANY IS USING THE NIV VERSION OF THE BIBLE IT HAS 44 DELETIONS IN IT!WHEN LOOKING FOR THE TRUTH START AT THE TOP!where did the other bible's come from,when you back track and find their is only one source(HEBREW/GREEK)WHICH WAS TRANSLATED FROM ARAMAIC OLDER STILL IS THE TORAH/TANAKH WHICH STARTED IT ALL,OH I CAN ALSO MENTION ZORASTER WHICH WAS AROUND THE TIME OF ABRAHAM/THIS RELIGION ALSO WAS VERRY MUCH LIKE THE BIBLE BUT GETING BACK TO HOMOSEXUALS THEY HAVE BEEN WITH US FROM THE BEGAINING ALONG WITH EVERY OTHER SEXUAL PERVERSION
r.lucas at 1:11PM on Jul 5th 2007
530. Oh dear! I'm so sorry I didn't re-read my comments a few times! Jeans of course shoud be genes. I was thinking and not spelling.Please excuse my errors. But I guess I got my point across.
Debra at 1:18PM on Jul 5th 2007
531. I am sure that gays have the nurturing needed to raise children as more homosexuals are adopting. I think the fact that many want to be married is a positive thing. They want to commit to one person...tho many 'normal' people still think that all they are doing is porking all kinds of men. They have relationships just like we do. Their lives are normal except for the sex of their partners. And THAT is none of your business. We are not to judge others remember? Only God should comdemn...by the way, will he forgive all of your sins? Jesus is the way..and gays have the same faith as you do. Get the 'beam' out of your eyes. And what if you were a hooker? Is that OK cuz it isn't gay? My opinion would be the bi-sexuals choose to be that way...not gay folks. Leave the gays alone. They deserve to be happy as you do....You may come back as one in your next life, just so you know how it feels to be one.
Debra at 1:23PM on Jul 5th 2007
532. my viewpoint is exactly the same only different from everyone else's! i lovehate everyone! i'm an atheist the way only a person brought up in christian society can be, and am a christian the way only someone brought up in a secularized culture can be. i buy things at walmart and hate consumerism. I'm a vegetarian who eats steak to lose wieght. whatever i can't live without, i call evil. whoever can live without those things, i call dangerous. and and i refuse to ever re-evaluate my preconceived notions about people and right and wrong! i will take advantage of the anonymity of the internet to aggressively attack ideas as if that could change the world and make it more like what i want. my point of view is awesome, why doesn't everyone think like me?
viewpoint monger at 3:36PM on Jul 5th 2007
533. Want to know who the real sinners are? Straight people. Conception was a gift from God, to populate the Earth responsibly. That responsibilty went out the window a long time ago. Straight people are having casual sex everyday, disregarding the fact that they were put here on Earth for breeding purposes. Wonder what God thinks about that one....
Talk about disease. The result of heterosexuals having casual sex is sickening and is God's way of saying stop!! Just go into your local clinic and see for yourself. Most patients with STDs are heterosexual. Coincidence? No. But straight people are so insecure with themselves, they can't accept the fact that they are the real sinners. They are the ones who invented all of the sick sexual fetishes out there today. Know your history.
Last time I checked, heterosexuals were the ones who invented S&M, sex dungeons, etc... You bored, sick perverts. May God have mercy on your straight perverted souls.
Oh, but homosexuals are the ones who are the sinners, right? Yeah, God doesn't care much about all of the hatred and death that heterosexuals have been committed to for eons. Go ahead heteros, try to convince yourself of that....you will never fool God.
Oh, and guess what? God loves us too...you conceided sinners.
Sailor101 at 3:39PM on Jul 5th 2007
534. we've all sinned and fallen short,the point is none of this would have noted untill some idiot wanted to get married nad say it's the same as a regular marriage,well it's not the same and if they wanted legal standing with any property all they would have to do is have a legal arrange drawn up, but no this is an attempt at changing wrong into right,another social exp. about to go wrong,don't gay bash and they should'nt have any more right's than the next person just because because their gay so let work/play but no special treatment,we have enough law's on the book's just inforce them.special rights create a special class with equal right's like every one else plus and extra set that puts them above every one else,oh and back to marriage when they can reproduce i'll buy it,and you can treat a person with kindness and love and not accept his/her life style no matter what it is,this all about legal standing people not butthumping and katt licking,their are those who wish to change our culture from it's core out!
r.lucas at 7:58PM on Jul 5th 2007
535. This is rediculous. There is no such thing as a homosexual. What gays do is not sex, just various forms of sodomy or masturbation and therefore they cannot be homosexuals. I suppose that if a couple of hermaphrodites had working genetalia and used the penis and vagina correctly, then they could be homosexual considering that they are both the same genders. genders being plural for each.
Marc at 8:36PM on Jul 5th 2007
536. Sailor101, some friendly criticism...
Not all straight people treat sex like it's a joke... your perception I feel is more based on the media, which yes, Hollywood treats it like a joke, and some perverts do... does that just mean it's heterosexuals? No, I've seen homosexual S&M, etc.
If you think heterosexuals spread disease, homosexuals (and yes, heterosexuals practice it too, but not exclusively) who practice anal sex spread it even more. The anal isn't made for sex, the tissue is more delicate, it's made to get rid of waste, and fluids leak through the tissue much more easily than female sex organs.
And if we were put on here for "breeding purposes", the fact of the matter is homosexuals cannot naturally reproduce AT ALL.
Maybe it is god's way of telling us to stop... but the bible does condemn "unnatural practices" of sex, but you won't see me banging it on your head! We all sin, I try my best to get by life succsessfully and honestly, and I hope you all do too. Good day to you all.
Jayjay at 8:41PM on Jul 5th 2007
537. WHAT DO YOU THINK ALL OF THE HOLY MEN CRYING OUT ABOUT!PEOPLE WERE WORSHIPING FALES god's AND NOT THE TRUE GOD ALONG WITH UNNATURAL WORSHIP THEY HAD UNNATURAL SEX ACT'S WITH CHILDREN/ANIMALS/HOMOSEXUALTY ALL WERE COMMON PLACE IN THE WORSHIP OF THESE FALES god's,NINEVEH TURNED FROM ALL THESE THINGS,SODOM/GOMORRAH DID NOT THE MEN WOULD RATHER SLEEP WITH THE VISITER'S
r.lucas at 8:31AM on Jul 6th 2007
538. some of u people who are commenting, u don't realize that people have been gay for a long time, it's nothing new. i have lots of friends who are gay and bi, there's nothing wrong with it, different things make different people happy, leave them alone. ~rachel~
rachel at 1:52PM on Jul 6th 2007
539. Dear Carolyn -
I have read 2 Timothy 3:16 many, many times... and I understand it; however, I am not sure you have/do. Let's see:
"All SCRIPTURE... is INSPIRED of God... and beneficial for teaching, for reproving, for setting things straight... that the man of God may be fully competent and completely equipped for every good work."
Now, I ask you... what is "scripture"? Well, according to Paul, it would first need to be INSPIRED, yes? And what is INSPIRED? Certainly the Bible itself tells you, but I am not sure you know because, like many others, you assume that ALL Bible books are "inspired." They are not. And not all inspired writing are contained in the Bible.
To help you understand, I am going to give you a little bit of information:
1. The books of Enoch, Jashar and Baruch were inspired. Yet, they are not contained in the Bible canon.
2. Paul's "1st" and "2nd" letters to the Corinthian congregation are actually his "2nd" and "3rd." If everything in the Bible is inspired, and all that was inspired is in the Bible, and Paul wrote is inspired, and Paul wrote the 1st letter, and the 1st letter was inspired, why isn't it in the Bible?
4. Luke told EXACTLY what the source of his writings were (he got his information from eyewitnesses of events and NOT from God -- he himself stated this)... and WHO asked him to write them (Theophilus and NOT God).
The problem arises, Carolyn, with the definition of "inspired." Most people believe, because they have been erroneously taught, that being "inspired" means being "moved," emotionally and/or psychologically, by some unforeseen "force". That is NOT what it means. Such writers were BORNE ALONG... meaning TAKEN... or moved LITERALLY... by holy spirit. As Michael said to John "Come on UP here."
To be INSPIRED, therefore, means that one is IN SPIRIT. "In spiritu". They have "transformed" from the flesh... into the spirit. And it is to that SPIRIT "man" that God... who is a SPIRIT... speaks... by means of Christ.
Thus, SCRIPTURE is that which is INSPIRED, meaning that which was written when the writer was IN THE SPIRIT... and such one was TOLD to write what he wrote.
I give you Daniel... Jeremiah... and particularly John, who SAID "I came to be IN THE SPIRIT."
You, dear Carolyn, are a victim of tradition and poor etymology. You have not fully studied the words of the Bible OR their root origins, whether it be Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek. Instead, you have relied on others to tell you what such words mean, others who have themselves been misled. Blind guides... who lead the blind... ultimately, into the pit.
I did not rely on man's understanding or translations or transliterations, however. I asked for... and received... HOLY SPIRIT... which God did not withhold from me ("that one will teach you ALL things"...).
He did not give it to me directly, however, but by means of the One through whom ALL blessing "flow." That One poured out his spirit upon me and that SPIRIT... opened not only my eyes... but my ears. He "excavated ears" so that I could hear... HIM... when he speaks. John 10:27
And according to HIM... "scripture" is:
Moses
Psalms
Prophets (which would include the Revelation)
But you don't have to take my word for it, for he TELLS us what "scripture" is in the Bible, too. Luke 24:27, 44, 45
But you... and many, many like you... those who PROFESS to be "christian" BELIE the truth of that because first, they have not received the holy spirit (false christs) and second, by their "works", including their hatred and hypocrisy (false prophets), don't KNOW of those verses and don't get the SENSE of them... and so you stick to one little verse, because it was "written by Paul."
I say to you, as my Lord has said to me:
"Everything I tell you IS written, but not everything that is written is what I will tell you."
I would implore YOU, then, Carolyn, to NOT lean upon your own understand... or that handed to you by earthling men, but seek the TRUTH and HIS righteousness.
John 14:6 - I... am the Way... the TRUTH... and the Life.
And there is no other... not even Paul.
I bid you peace.
Your servant and a slave of Christ,
ShelbyJ
ShelbyJ at 3:31PM on Jul 6th 2007
540. Pixiegrl of #522,
You are welcome. Keep up the good questioning. They say smart kids question things. I now add (ok I probably am not the first person to add this), but smart adults question and I say questioning adults get smart. Round and round we go.
Michelle at 6:43PM on Jul 6th 2007