If you want to discover what kind of people atheists are, scroll down to my recent posts and read the responses. I am a troll. I am a cretin. I am a moron. I am a nut-job. And so on. For those who go beyond abuse, there is shrieking complaint. How dare you suggest atheists weren't around when this happened? How can you say atheists don't have feelings? How can you exploit this tragedy in this way? How come your God didn't prevent this, huh?
Actually my point was a simple one, and it seems to be unrefuted. Atheism seems to have nothing to say to people when there is serious bereavement or tragedy. Of course atheists have feelings and there were undoubtedly atheists among the mourners at Virginia Tech. But the Richard Dawkins philosophy--that we live in a meaningless world where there is no good and no evil--whatever its intellectual merit, seems arid and unconsoling when human beings are really hurting.
One atheist wrote to say that rather than rely on idle promises of fantasies of life after death, what atheists would say is that we need gun control laws and a better health care system. Fair enough, but is this what you tell a crying mother? "Madam, you should feel much better because new gun control laws and mental health reforms are on their way."
I wonder if the abuse that atheists heap on people when their ideas are questioned is indicative of a deeper malady. Atheists like to portray themselves as devotees of reason, but read the responses and see how much reason you discover there. Rather, it looks like these fellows hate God, and this hate spills over to anyone who brings up God's name. Call it the atheism of revenge. They blame God for screwing them over in some way, and unbelief is their form of payback.
Reader Comments ( Page 1 of 8)
1. Your argument is rather silly. Because we don't go around saying such things as "Well, God works in mysterious ways," or "they're in a better place now," Atheism has "nothing to offer."
In a way, I guess that is a good point. Atheism doesn't have much to say on anything, rather it is only a lack of belief in God (personally, as an Agnostic, I'll lob myself into this side of the argument for simplicity sake).
Of course, individuals have had plenty to offer in the wake of the Virginia Tech shootings that has nothing to do with religion and everything to do with love for your fellow man. Plenty of Atheists are providing a shoulder to cry on, donations to memorial funds, solidarity with the community and other such things. Trust me, if I were dealing with this on a more personal basis right now, all I would want is peopole who would hold me and let me rant and rave to them. The first person who dropped something trite on me, whether it be the religious "God will help you through this/He's in a better place/mysterious ways etc" or the generally trite "Stuff happens. Everything happens for a reason. He'll always be in your heart etc" would probably get slugged.
But anyhow, you seem intent on propping yourself and your own beliefs on the bodies of the dead and the hearts of the grieving while cutting down anyone else's. If it makes you feel better about yourself or your religion, more power to you. To the rest of us, it looks self-serving and ghoulish.
Matt at 4:21PM on Apr 20th 2007
2. Project much Dinesh? Your ranting still doesn't justify your using a tragedy to whore your own agenda.
Atheists were there, Atheists offered solace, and continue to do so.
You've been refuted.
Calladus at 4:43PM on Apr 20th 2007
3. D'Souza likes to claim that he was arguing that atheism has nothing to offer in times like these, but one need only read what he wrote to see the attack was on atheists as well, as misguided and ridiculous as it was.
That said, even if atheism itself has nothing to offer, atheists - any fellow human beings, really - most certainly do.
So, what does religious belief have to offer us?
That the dead are in a better place? Well, fantastic. I'm sure some variant of Flying Spaghetti Monsterism can promise the same. If it isn't true, then it's value lies only in its ability to delude.
That this was all part of God's plan? Wait, I though D'Souza asserted that "C'est la vie" was the atheist angle...but if everything turns out the way God wants, seems like "get over it" is a pretty appropriate religious response to the sorrow we see.
Not only do his arguments against atheism not follow, they actually counter the very position to which he is trying to stake a claim.
That he combines this terrible logic with lies about Dawkins' writings and infantile apologetics such as "they hate God!" is indicative of the shallow thought at work here.
It'd be laughable it weren't so very sad and so very public.
andy at 5:18PM on Apr 20th 2007
4. "Some people are bound to die young. By dying young a person stays young forever in people's memory. If he burns brightly before he dies, his light shines for all time." - Alexander Solzhenitsyn
This is a true statement. Not a fantasy. No wings and halo required for this vision. This was not a blessing, nor a test of faith. To focus on the death blinds you from celebrating the short life lived. The deaths may have been meaningless, but the lives were not.
There should be a moment of silence, not for prayer, but instead so that everyone might "select a special, happy memory of that person" as they knew the fallen and would like to go on remembering them.
This is the work of an ill mind that could have been avoided, and that is something that no one on that campus wants to be responsible for, so let's either apologise profusely to God or blame Satan because humans are just not powerful enough to stop something like this.
Give me a break. People will even stoop low enough to say that he was mentally ill and completely incapable of changing. YOU are in control of your life. And I mean YOU. The sooner you realize that the better.
Cho was at the mercy of three things: his mind, his Lord, and the people around him - and all us non-believers know how much the Lord helped him, don't we? What's left?
His mind, but his mind was his Lord. If Cho had been speaking to a human counselor instead of his version of God our world might be 33 people richer. Now what's left?
The people around him. Oh, but there was nothing they could do. Some students may say that they tried to get him to open up, but did they really? Are they telling themselves that because they kind of acknowledged his existence by asking him for a pencil? Well, that doesn't cut it. This kid thought he was alone, and that may not be the case, but he easily convinced himself that it was, so how does a person convince themselves of that if it's not true? He was alone long enough to make all of those videos and take all of those photos in his dormitory's rec room. Where was everyone? I'm afraid to say that people might have seen him doing that and no one paid any attention. Well, they may have muttered "freak" as they walked by...
Religion is easy, reality is hard.
Tom at 5:36PM on Apr 20th 2007
5. More dishonesty from D.D.
Gary at 5:45PM on Apr 20th 2007
6. Danish,
It's so sad to see these words from you, "I am a troll. I am a cretin. I am a moron. I am a nut-job. And so on."
Don't get down on yourself, Kitten. You keep hacking away! As long as you misquote atheists, you can keep this going for another week and not worry about writer's block!
Sincerely,
Maple Bar
lil_turk at 5:49PM on Apr 20th 2007
7. No, it is YOU who misses the point. Firstly, I saw little sign of hate in the responses to your previous comments - no more than you display in your own intolerance towards anyone with beliefs that don't echo your own. Secondly, your argument seems to be that because not believing in heaven - because that's what you're talking about, not God - is harder than believing in it, that atheism is 'wrong'. Unfortunately, the vast majority of atheists can't choose to become religious by snapping their fingers when something bad happens. I would dearly love to be able to believe in an afterlife, personally, but I don't. If that makes it harder for me to come to terms with the death of those I love, then that is my grief and my problem, not something for you to attack and even gloat over. The unfairness of the universe makes death hard to accept, but it does not make life meaningless or mean that there is no consolation for the grieving in the love and support of their family and community. Although you might find it shocking, even some secular writings are just as effective in hard times as scripture. Your perception of 'hate' is pure projection - we don't hate you, and we don't believe there is a God to hate. You, on the other hand, seem to stand for intolerance and black-and-white generalisations about those you don't understand.
Slant at 5:56PM on Apr 20th 2007
8.
Most atheists do not hate god or Christians, and that fact alone is the answer to your original question. Why did atheists have nothing to say in the face of this tragedy? Because most of the people affected by it were Christian, just like most Americans, and it is not our place to preach to them about our beliefs in the face of their own personal beliefs in life after death, especially when they have just lost a loved one. If those affected were mostly atheists the message could have been very different.
You don't want to hear that message because it conflicts with your own beliefs and you're dismissing anything we say as not good enough (as it wouldn't be for a Christian). As i told you before, sometimes honoring someone for their life and the way they touched all of us personally is enough for some people. If that's not enough for someone and they need assurances their loss will not be permanent, well that's why we have Christianity. I'm fine with it, not my cup of tea though.
Peter at 6:34PM on Apr 20th 2007
9. Actually, you were the first to abuse - with your tone, timing and words. I forgive you. That aside
I don't think it's that we don't have anything to say, but rather that what we have to say isn't as consoling to many people as an imaginary story of a benevolent God watching over everything. But I am more consoled to know that there isn't some evil force out there after me, but rather that we need to learn to accept our small place in the universe and expect to die sometime and to take consolation in the fact that the earth is generally a safe place full of caring people. To know that we can learn to understand what propelled the killer and to work to prevent it in the future.
So yes, those people who are in denial of their death and the finiteness of their beings might not be consoled by the atheist viewpoint. But atheists are. But all you're saying is what atheists already know - that religion is a crutch - a fairytale - consolation in the form of a lie. I don't want any more lies, I want to understand what motivates killers and help the world prevent them in the future rather than casting the problem away as a problem of evil.
To fix a problem I want to understand the problem - I don't want to cover it over and wish it wasn't there - that makes me feel worse. So, as an atheist, I'd much rather hear secular speakers than any religious leaders who would make me feel much worse.
One crucial thing about atheism that a lot of theists miss is the fact that though the external universe is devoid of meaning, that OF COURSE MEANING STILL EXISTS, IT'S JUST THAT IT IS INTERNAL / EMOTIONAL. Atheists live lives full of meaning as much as any other human. I personally think that confusion arises when we anthropomorphize those emotions to be externally sourced - so that when we debunk those external sources we think we lose our emotional experience of meaning. What we should instead be doing in my opinion is embracing the fact that our emotions come from within and then living in that world of internal emotion, acknowledging that its source is our brains at acknowledging that those emotions are what makes us human and embrace them.
"Okay, pal, here's the Virginia Tech situation. Go create some meaning and share it with the rest of us Give us that atheist sermon with you in the pulpit of the campus chapel. I'm not being facetious here. I really want to hear what the atheist would tell the grieving mothers. "
Maybe something like: We are all human and value life and love our children beyond words and all of us must die but we are terrified of death and saddened by loss beyond words. Life on earth is full of sadness, yet life goes on; time heals. We must learn to carry the memories of those we love with us and learn to live life to the fullest and with the most love for the time we have left. We must learn to accept the loss of death though we do not like it. We must learn to accept the fact that we and everyone we know are only here temporarily. Because though life is full of loss and the universe outside of us full of brutal indifference, life is also full of love, unbearable beauty, etc.. We can take some comfort to know that there is no uncontrollable / unseen evil in the universe out to get us. that life is generally safe - we must go on living, keeping those we've lost close to us, and in time, loving anew.
icouldbewrongbut at 6:39PM on Apr 20th 2007
10. I'm starting to get this feeling that an atheist ran over Mr. D'souza's dog and this is his way to get back at him, by continually showing that he knows NOTHING about atheism.
Or about not posting the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over and over, for that matter.
Carter Dotson at 6:42PM on Apr 20th 2007
11.
Also I think most people took a confrontational tone with you because you exploited a tragedy to take a swipe at atheists, then continually make generalizations about the merits of atheism, what we believe and why we believe it. Turnabout is fair play, that's why people responded in questioning your own beliefs and you decided to take that as "hate for god".
Peter at 6:45PM on Apr 20th 2007
12. Here's what this atheist did. I sat down with my nephew in college and talked to him about secular things we have in common, things that help us deal with our perplexity over the absurdity of the universe.
We had a good lunch and enjoyed each other's company, took solace in our ability to enjoy one another and to be moved by the snow on the mountains.
We didn't need a god to comfort us. We did talk about the callousness of pundits on all sides that used the tragedy at VT to push agendas.
Now that I think of it, the least Christ-like responses have come from those who believe in God. Progressives seem to want to understand how to make the world a better place. Conservatives believe that the world is inherently evil, and seek first and foremost to divide and place blame.
This atheist rejects your gloomy conservative world view. Even with tragedies like VT, the world is a beautiful place. I'm here to enjoy it and to work to make it better. What's your stand?
ndib at 7:08PM on Apr 20th 2007
13. Oh for crying out loud, Dinesh. Your point was simple, and simply refuted: atheists have as much to offer any anybody else in the way of comfort, sympathy, etc. And atheists are ok calling things evil; they just don't think it's an explanation of anything. Are you really this stupid?
Hermagoras at 7:13PM on Apr 20th 2007
14. Let me add that when people called you cretin, troll, moron, or whatever, they weren't responding to your juvenile "arguments," such as they were, but to your willful manipulation of a tragedy to (pretend to) score cheap political points. It's sickening, and "cretin" seems less like an insult than an accurate description of someone who would do that.
Hermagoras at 7:23PM on Apr 20th 2007
15. One more comment. Let me assume you really think you're saying something instead of just wilfully pissing people off (like you learned at the Dartmouth Review back in the day). Your "simple" point was this: "Atheism seems to have nothing to say to people when there is serious bereavement or tragedy."
But the thing is, atheism doesn't say anything. Neither does Christianity, or Buddhism, or Islam, or Judaism, or whatever. "ism's" don't comfort people: PEOPLE do. And the atheist is as comforting as the Christian. That you have more sympathy for ideologies than for people here is not surprising, since that's standard practice in your writing.
Hermagoras at 7:34PM on Apr 20th 2007